Discussion:
I can't win, ever!
(too old to reply)
Jr
2005-06-29 15:56:20 UTC
Permalink
My new wife (age 27) of three weeks... yippee!!! .... and I (age 36) am
struggling through an old issue that I thought might be partially
resolved through our committing our lives to each other. She has
admitted that she has always dealt with low self-esteem causing her to
often think that she is not attractive and makes her feel like she has
to compare herself to other women (either out in public or on TV) and
change herself in order for me to think she is more desirable. To me,
she is beautiful, sexy, smart, responsible, trustworthy and perfect. I
don't want her to change a thing. She refuses to believe me when I
say that.

The following might seem sort-of minor but after similar instances of
the same issue, it becomes something that makes me concerned.

An example of the most recent "issue" was yesterday while we were
watching our wedding video. I was just ecstatic... Happier than
ever... ear to ear smile! She seemed to be enjoying it as well (other
than repeatedly criticizing her uncle who is an amateur video guy,
until I asked her to stop). The problem occurred when I neglected to
tell her how beautiful she looked on the video (Of course, I repeatedly
filled her with compliments throughout the wedding day - Which she
says she may or may not remember). Argh! So when she prompted me with
"Didn't I look beautiful?" I snapped out of it and told her how
beautiful I thought she looked and that she was the most
"beautifulest" bride ever. She responded with a frown and
proceeded to tell me why she wanted me to tell her without her
prompting me. It was because at some point, years ago, I had told her
that I thought my previous wife looked beautiful in the wedding
pictures. Once again, she needs the validation that she is better than
the ex or any other women on the planet apparently. Understanding that
she might be having some insecure thoughts, I moved over to sit next to
her, put my arms around her and gave her some smooches while I told her
that she really was the most beautiful and glowing bride I had ever
seen. I saw things on the video that I didn't realize was going
on... cameras going off, babies crying, people chatting, etc. Why?
Because I could not take my eyes off of her! As you might imagine, I
was unanimously rejected because by then, it wasn't good enough. So
it escalated to a two hour talk (I get accused often of blowing it out
of proportion) and we are still exactly where we started. She says
things like, "I don't know how you expect to make it 30 years if
you act like this over something stupid". I suggested we talk about
this with a counselor so I can better understand why she thinks like
she does and hopefully be able to change my behavior to help her "get
there". She says something like, I'm not going to a counselor,
I've been there, they don't do anything for me... And... what they
did say was that the partner of someone who is "sensitive" or has
low self esteem needs to be more caring, complimentary and sensitive.
Having heard this before, I know that I already practice the more
caring approach hoping that it'll help her/us eventually get through
this. She tells me that it's not enough. So it sounds to me that
she has put the burden on my shoulders to bow to this issue and give
in. I refuse to give in to this! I feel I am giving her the
compliments she craves but when she explains to me that I am just
saying that because she wants to hear it, I get very frustrated (but
only after over explaining how much I mean it). I can't win here and
it's driving me nuts!

Another frustrating item to note is her occasionally in the past
telling me that I don't appreciate her beauty or sexiness noting that
all her friends think she is more sexy than I do and that any guy would
die to have a girl with her assets that likes sex so much. I have
asked her to never, ever bring that up again and, to date, she has not
and even admitted that it was a mean thing to say and that she has said
it on purpose to push my buttons. Says it is something her and her ex
used to do.

Anyway, we spent lots of time over the last few years trying to get
over this disturbing (to me) trend of looking to the past and thinking
she is not good enough and/or requesting my validation (or having
expectations that I will validate her) that she is better than my ex.
For the most part, I am a 'look to today and tomorrow' guy. You
cannot change the past but you can do your best to control what happens
in the future.

My problem is that when she ambushes me with these unfulfilled
expectations, I feel like I've let her down and proceed to get mad at
myself first then mad at her for making me feel like it was something I
did even though I know it is something that I cannot predict nor
control.

What stinks is that the only times we "fight", it's almost always
somehow related to this esteem issue. My thinking is logically, if we
beat this, we'll have it made.

The question(s): How can I better deal situations like this so we can
build off of it instead of causing problems for both of us? Is there
something I need to do differently? Is this something she needs to
address individually? Or is this something we could work on together?

The bottom line is that I don't want to point fingers and I don't
want to "fix" anyone (unless it's me). I just seek
understanding.

Please help! I know we can get past this!

Thank you!
Eleonore Beaudoin
2005-06-30 23:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jr
My new wife (age 27) of three weeks... yippee!!! .... and I (age 36) am
struggling through an old issue that I thought might be partially
resolved through our committing our lives to each other. She has
admitted that she has always dealt with low self-esteem causing her to
often think that she is not attractive and makes her feel like she has
to compare herself to other women (either out in public or on TV) and
change herself in order for me to think she is more desirable. To me,
she is beautiful, sexy, smart, responsible, trustworthy and perfect. I
don't want her to change a thing. She refuses to believe me when I
say that.
The following might seem sort-of minor but after similar instances of
the same issue, it becomes something that makes me concerned.
An example of the most recent "issue" was yesterday while we were
watching our wedding video. I was just ecstatic... Happier than
ever... ear to ear smile! She seemed to be enjoying it as well (other
than repeatedly criticizing her uncle who is an amateur video guy,
until I asked her to stop). The problem occurred when I neglected to
tell her how beautiful she looked on the video (Of course, I repeatedly
filled her with compliments throughout the wedding day - Which she
says she may or may not remember). Argh! So when she prompted me with
"Didn't I look beautiful?" I snapped out of it and told her how
beautiful I thought she looked and that she was the most
"beautifulest" bride ever. She responded with a frown and
proceeded to tell me why she wanted me to tell her without her
prompting me. It was because at some point, years ago, I had told her
that I thought my previous wife looked beautiful in the wedding
pictures. Once again, she needs the validation that she is better than
the ex or any other women on the planet apparently. Understanding that
she might be having some insecure thoughts, I moved over to sit next to
her, put my arms around her and gave her some smooches while I told her
that she really was the most beautiful and glowing bride I had ever
seen. I saw things on the video that I didn't realize was going
on... cameras going off, babies crying, people chatting, etc. Why?
Because I could not take my eyes off of her! As you might imagine, I
was unanimously rejected because by then, it wasn't good enough. So
it escalated to a two hour talk (I get accused often of blowing it out
of proportion) and we are still exactly where we started. She says
things like, "I don't know how you expect to make it 30 years if
you act like this over something stupid". I suggested we talk about
this with a counselor so I can better understand why she thinks like
she does and hopefully be able to change my behavior to help her "get
there". She says something like, I'm not going to a counselor,
I've been there, they don't do anything for me... And... what they
did say was that the partner of someone who is "sensitive" or has
low self esteem needs to be more caring, complimentary and sensitive.
Having heard this before, I know that I already practice the more
caring approach hoping that it'll help her/us eventually get through
this. She tells me that it's not enough. So it sounds to me that
she has put the burden on my shoulders to bow to this issue and give
in. I refuse to give in to this! I feel I am giving her the
compliments she craves but when she explains to me that I am just
saying that because she wants to hear it, I get very frustrated (but
only after over explaining how much I mean it). I can't win here and
it's driving me nuts!
Another frustrating item to note is her occasionally in the past
telling me that I don't appreciate her beauty or sexiness noting that
all her friends think she is more sexy than I do and that any guy would
die to have a girl with her assets that likes sex so much. I have
asked her to never, ever bring that up again and, to date, she has not
and even admitted that it was a mean thing to say and that she has said
it on purpose to push my buttons. Says it is something her and her ex
used to do.
Anyway, we spent lots of time over the last few years trying to get
over this disturbing (to me) trend of looking to the past and thinking
she is not good enough and/or requesting my validation (or having
expectations that I will validate her) that she is better than my ex.
For the most part, I am a 'look to today and tomorrow' guy. You
cannot change the past but you can do your best to control what happens
in the future.
My problem is that when she ambushes me with these unfulfilled
expectations, I feel like I've let her down and proceed to get mad at
myself first then mad at her for making me feel like it was something I
did even though I know it is something that I cannot predict nor
control.
What stinks is that the only times we "fight", it's almost always
somehow related to this esteem issue. My thinking is logically, if we
beat this, we'll have it made.
The question(s): How can I better deal situations like this so we can
build off of it instead of causing problems for both of us? Is there
something I need to do differently? Is this something she needs to
address individually? Or is this something we could work on together?
The bottom line is that I don't want to point fingers and I don't
want to "fix" anyone (unless it's me). I just seek
understanding.
Please help! I know we can get past this!
Thank you!
I hope for you that you both can.

From the looks of it, your relationship is one of settling dysfunctions,
if not already settled by what you said of the five years before you married.

Let me explain:
your wife wanted you cause she wants to be loved.
So doing, she completely forgets loving.

Fpr instance: when lookng at the video she moaned that you did not tell
her how beautiful she was, it did not occur to you to answer that "As a
matter of fact, was thinking the same thing!:)". It did not occur to you
to look at the fact she wants "proofs" of love, while she forgets to show
any in such moments.

When one wants to be loved and forgets to love, dysfunctions fast install
themself, specially if the other feels terrible and tries to do what she asks.
Not only she asked it will your immediately "giving it" never be a good time
for any proof to be good enough at all at all, the attention you then give
her both encourage her in her self pitty party and need to feel loved,
rather than to love.

It does not mean there is no love.
But it means that the insecurioty makes her slip into wanting to be loved,
and into *emotionally deopending* on being loved by you.

While you'd say that is not a problem cause you love her, it still becomes
a growing problem when the interaction is affected and the dynamics
becomedependancy-control: f one feels like they depend on you to feel
lovable, they will do all they can to control the lovce flow. Wth this
attitude, this unconscious slip, comes that "I did ths and that for you
and you (did not even tell me I was lovable, sort of thing).
Recriminations, nagging, and the very things that make anyone end up
resenting their spouse for making their life a complicated hell.

For a healthy loveship to be, TWO must happen to love each other and work
on it when they do not particularly so happen, of course;-).
But in short, two must love *each other*. If one is demanding to be loved
instead of loving, all hell breaks loose!

There is not much that needs done...

Just reminding her of that, of the easy slip that couples get into when
they want to be loved up to acting non lovingly wiht the other....

It can start as innocently as the woman deciding to take the aftenoon off
work to surpise her guy: she will wear that red dress she was wearing when
he proposed, she will cook the same meal that they ahd the day they first
met, she will create the ambiance that was so propicious to their romance,
and he will react just as he did then....

Only, she rushes. she runs all over the pale. By the time he gets home,
she is already edgy from cooking burns and from the darn candles not
staying lit for some reason.

In the meantime, you might be walking hoem smiling to the nice cosy
evening, and might be thinking ofjust going for fast food and tor ent a
movie like you know she likes to do, or like you remember was what got you
close that special night, You might be smiling to your dreams, and her too...

But then you get home....
And as you take your jacket or shoes off, you say, from the hallway:
-Hey hon! I feel like..fast food...Lie playing bum, hehehe, and then gong
to rent a movie". You got eyewinks in your mind, but she does not see
that. She feels pressure buiding up. You did not walk in staring at her as
you ahd that night at that restaurant. She bult expectations and they are
starting to go down the drain....
On your side, you think "?? Hello? Anybody home?? No one answers!" and you
walk in the kitchen calling:
-Honey? Oh hooo-ney! Did you hear what I just said...?"
But you still get no answer so you start feeling wuite other: worried,
nervous....You fnally see her sittign there in a red dress but with a
suling lip THAT big, and looking furious.
You worry about what disaster happen, see she is wearing a nice red dress,
that she powedered and puffed, but looks really upset....Did he mom die???
You ask:
-I everythgn okay? Is anythign wrong???
-You did not even ntice the dred dress nor the table and candles!!!
-Huh...?
-Of course, you probably see nicer dresses all day:( Dnlt touch me! You
did not even tell me how nice I looked!
-But you do look very nice!
-Yeah right!!:(

Etc etc...

Thing is, she did it all *to be loved* to get demos of love, rather than
do it lovingly anymore...
Not cause she no longer loves...But cayuse she dreams of making it the
same as the nicest moments you both lived, to feel LOVED. In the process
frustration builds up so high that while she wants to be loved, she cats
like she'd in fact wanna poke your eyes out...
And the wanting to be loved lead to disaster....For both.

Yet, she coudl have been wearign that same dress, and coud have burnt the
meal, it is=t woudl not have mattered, had you walked in to her havign a
funny frown and saying "Darn. I burnt the roast...I so wanted to suprise
you and have a romntic evening like that time when (...)...
-So happens I know how to do that. Remember when we went for fast food and
a movie?
-Sure do!
-Well? Wanna have fast food with a bum, then rent a movie and see what
happens?:)

The difference is entirely in the attitude. The activities, actions, words
even can be the same. But if one does it to be loved, it becomes loveless.
No one wants to love by obligation and constantly be henpecked...

I think she does the right thing....
But slips into the "wanting to be loved" attitude, rather than the
"wanting to love" one, all in all.

Yet...if two want to love both end up by ricochet feeling loved....
And if one wants to be loved?
No one can possibly feel loved, and most certainly not FEED love...
Even if the roast does not burn...

Hope something in there helps. Writing having a hot beer in a steaming
second floor small room:), and after missing entire nights of sleep due to
that extra humid heat wave (no air co. Gasp).





--
Jr
2005-07-07 17:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the reply! That's a great theory. Any suggestions on how
to bring this up to her and explain it so it is not taken as a slam or
that I'm pointing the finger at her exclusively?

Do you know of any books/authors that address the theory of wanting
love but not doing it by loving?

Thanks again, I appreciate the input!
Eleonore Beaudoin
2005-07-12 02:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jr
Thanks for the reply! That's a great theory. Any suggestions on how
to bring this up to her and explain it so it is not taken as a slam or
that I'm pointing the finger at her exclusively?
Do you know of any books/authors that address the theory of wanting
love but not doing it by loving?
Not as directly as I maybe talked about it (from coaching poeple in the
past on the diference a constructive "attitude" can make)
But _ Women Who Love Too Much_ is one that comes to mind, if your
offering her the book might bring up sparks for her assumig that you
feel she loves too much, due to the title, where she;d maybe think
that would mean you do not love her enough, where the entire third
degree/insecurities/needs to be reassured would pop up again (name of author
will pop sometime, but if
not, it is so well known that a search under it will bring results. If you
are not sure it would be the right author, shoot the one you find and I
will confirm or infirm.

Let me think of what other book in English could better help approach it....

_Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus_ (or is it the other way
around:)) could also help as a start for how men and women differ in their
way of communicating...
It coud bring interesting instant practice moments and experiences that
could open the mind to her
expressing her needs without using the "you" this and "you did not" that
as much over time and after seing results in other little things...Like
her saying "I feel like (whatever) when you (whatever)" vs "You did this
*to make me feel that way*:(", and differenciating
the two (which could maybe in turn and in time help other observations
of her own after some reading of various things...

Maureen something? ...First name of that author of Women who love
too much...Darn, not sure. Again, it will come in time....
But the title would not be the best to offer a emotionally dependant woman,
again....Rip the cover LOL:):)

Sorry for not having checked the ng earlier, this place is usually
absolutely DEAD:)

I'll try and thnk of better readings or books. Some that could go easier
on her fear of abandonment and not being lovable come to mind, but they
are French books...Will have to think of some either written in English
that woudl best help, or translated into English.

For easier communication, you can try and email me at wippee21 at yahoodotcom.

The addie in the header is "fake", i.e. all mail that goes there is
automatically sent to Nowhere Land without my even seing it.

You are in your 30s and her in her 20s, did you not say?
That could be another thing possibly making her feel inept....
Your experience or maturoty in comparison to her or how she would even
think you more mature, would you not be (insecurity needs not know f you
are or not, is what I mean;-)).

I'll try and think of the titles in my own library and the oens I read or
heard of, and see what I can come up with when better reste. It is 40C in
the house with this awful humidex factor, can't think too well:)

Will try and think of it at work with the airco helping over there:)

Later, and feel free to write to the email addie I gave in the text above.
(NOT the freenet one, again, since it is a "bogus" email addie)

Later,

-C
Post by Jr
Thanks again, I appreciate the input!
--
Eleonore Beaudoin
2005-07-12 02:53:48 UTC
Permalink
ROBIN NORWOOD.
Name of the author just popped (for _women who love too much_)
Post by Eleonore Beaudoin
Post by Jr
Thanks for the reply! That's a great theory. Any suggestions on how
to bring this up to her and explain it so it is not taken as a slam or
that I'm pointing the finger at her exclusively?
Do you know of any books/authors that address the theory of wanting
love but not doing it by loving?
Not as directly as I maybe talked about it (from coaching poeple in the
past on the diference a constructive "attitude" can make)
But _ Women Who Love Too Much_ is one that comes to mind, if your
offering her the book might bring up sparks for her assumig that you
feel she loves too much, due to the title, where she;d maybe think
that would mean you do not love her enough, where the entire third
degree/insecurities/needs to be reassured would pop up again (name of author
will pop sometime, but if
not, it is so well known that a search under it will bring results. If you
are not sure it would be the right author, shoot the one you find and I
will confirm or infirm.
Let me think of what other book in English could better help approach it....
_Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus_ (or is it the other way
around:)) could also help as a start for how men and women differ in their
way of communicating...
It coud bring interesting instant practice moments and experiences that
could open the mind to her
expressing her needs without using the "you" this and "you did not" that
as much over time and after seing results in other little things...Like
her saying "I feel like (whatever) when you (whatever)" vs "You did this
*to make me feel that way*:(", and differenciating
the two (which could maybe in turn and in time help other observations
of her own after some reading of various things...
Maureen something? ...First name of that author of Women who love
too much...Darn, not sure. Again, it will come in time....
But the title would not be the best to offer a emotionally dependant woman,
again....Rip the cover LOL:):)
Sorry for not having checked the ng earlier, this place is usually
absolutely DEAD:)
I'll try and thnk of better readings or books. Some that could go easier
on her fear of abandonment and not being lovable come to mind, but they
are French books...Will have to think of some either written in English
that woudl best help, or translated into English.
For easier communication, you can try and email me at wippee21 at yahoodotcom.
The addie in the header is "fake", i.e. all mail that goes there is
automatically sent to Nowhere Land without my even seing it.
You are in your 30s and her in her 20s, did you not say?
That could be another thing possibly making her feel inept....
Your experience or maturoty in comparison to her or how she would even
think you more mature, would you not be (insecurity needs not know f you
are or not, is what I mean;-)).
I'll try and think of the titles in my own library and the oens I read or
heard of, and see what I can come up with when better reste. It is 40C in
the house with this awful humidex factor, can't think too well:)
Will try and think of it at work with the airco helping over there:)
Later, and feel free to write to the email addie I gave in the text above.
(NOT the freenet one, again, since it is a "bogus" email addie)
Later,
-C
Post by Jr
Thanks again, I appreciate the input!
--
--

Eleonore Beaudoin
2005-07-12 02:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jr
Thanks for the reply! That's a great theory. Any suggestions on how
to bring this up to her and explain it so it is not taken as a slam or
that I'm pointing the finger at her exclusively?
Do you know of any books/authors that address the theory of wanting
love but not doing it by loving?
BTW, if this can help you find soemthign suitable to what you feel best
corresponds to your couple in what woudl come up under that search,
wanting love but not doing it by loving is soemthign you coudl
find titles for under a search for the keywords "control", "fear of
abandonment", "emotional dependancy", dys/disfuntional relationships...
I am not saying it is all that, but tryng those keywords in a search might
bring up a list of titles with synopsis that you coudl check to see if
they seem to correspond to your situation or not.
Post by Jr
Thanks again, I appreciate the input! >
Pleasure:)

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